The blog of an atheist's random jottings on humanism, events, renfairs, travel, reading, music, and even the odd spot of gardening.
Crime, prison, the death penalty, randomness
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My last blog post on the rather esoteric and harmless subject of ASBO's (well, that's what I felt before the debate got under way) sparked off one of the most random discussions ever, centering around the death penalty. So I'm doing a post on the death penalty, and seeing if it sparks off a discussion about ASBO's or sushi or asteroids. Hey. You never know. According to some sites, the death penalty typically costs society in the USA far more financially than lifelong imprisonment. Into addition, the number of those wrongfully convicted and executed is not insignificant; and I believe it was because of publicising four cases of death sentences perhaps wrongfully handed down that the death penalty was abolished in Britain.
Nowadays, I believe, European Union (EU) basic treaty rules also prohibit the death penalty, which also means prohibiting the extradition of anyone who would face a death penalty in the country seeking their extradition. So Britain would not be allowed to be in the EU and to have the death penalty at the same time.
Does the death penalty work? If the person you execute was rightfully convicted, then they're not going to be offending again; but you can say the same for life imprisonment. Britain certainly has a de facto form of actual life imprisonment;
Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, for example, are almost certainly never going to come out of imprisonment alive (and both were lucky to escape the death penalty; abolition occured while both were being held prior to sentencing).
Does the death penalty work as deterrent? There seems no overall good case to be made for that; the strongest deterrence seems to be a high probablity of being caught.
Is the death penalty morally right? One country that uses it quite a lot, China, has a rather dismal record of police investigation and judicial proceedings; the possibility is very high that many executed in China were wrongfully convicted. In the USA, quite a few of those sentenced to death appear to have been wrongfully convicted too.
Is the death penalty morally wrong? Depends on what morals you have, doesn't it? Some people hold all human life for sacred, others don't, and others still have rather mixed and contradictory attitudes. Moreover, many societies are not or do not feel they are exactly rich enough to be able to afford lifelong imprisonment for those convicted.
Interestingly, a very new study of rates of death sentencing in the USA has shown that if you murder a black in the USA, you are far less likely to get the death penalty than if you murder a white -- and that is regardess of whether you the offender are black or white yourself.
That new study will apparently be published next year in the North Carolina Law Review. It will be used in various appeals in court, but does it mean much for the death penalty overall? On a practical level, quite possibly; if it and similar studies show injustice in sentencing, and lead to too many successful appeals, then the death sentence may get dropped by more and more states in the USA. On an ethical level, it doesn't say anything about the death sentence itself, just injustice in the application of it.
What are my own personal feelings about it all? I think too many are wrongfully convicted to be able to support the death sentence; the problem is, once you're executed, finding out afterwards you were innocent is not going to help you much. That's a fairly practical reason not to have a death sentence; but then, quite a few end up in prison wrongfully comnvicted, and that's not a reason to abolish prison.
So I find I cannot support the death penalty; but I also don't get upset about it as much as I get upset about other things -- the treatment of the genuinely mentally ill in prison (as opposed to those faking it or those who are thought of as being mentally ill but who aren't) for example is a much bigger problem that affects far more people, and very nastily so, than does the death sentence.
Later on I will be doing blog posts on other associated questions, such as, "Does prison work?", a subject on which there is a hell of a lot to say, and so on, but for now, over to you, commentators.
You may also be interested in the data from the Death Penalty Information Center data clearinghouse, and in the graphic below, which shows number of executions since 1976 per each USA state (courtesy of this blogger, I believe):
Nowadays, I believe, European Union (EU) basic treaty rules also prohibit the death penalty, which also means prohibiting the extradition of anyone who would face a death penalty in the country seeking their extradition. So Britain would not be allowed to be in the EU and to have the death penalty at the same time.
Does the death penalty work? If the person you execute was rightfully convicted, then they're not going to be offending again; but you can say the same for life imprisonment. Britain certainly has a de facto form of actual life imprisonment;
Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, for example, are almost certainly never going to come out of imprisonment alive (and both were lucky to escape the death penalty; abolition occured while both were being held prior to sentencing). Does the death penalty work as deterrent? There seems no overall good case to be made for that; the strongest deterrence seems to be a high probablity of being caught.
Is the death penalty morally right? One country that uses it quite a lot, China, has a rather dismal record of police investigation and judicial proceedings; the possibility is very high that many executed in China were wrongfully convicted. In the USA, quite a few of those sentenced to death appear to have been wrongfully convicted too.
Is the death penalty morally wrong? Depends on what morals you have, doesn't it? Some people hold all human life for sacred, others don't, and others still have rather mixed and contradictory attitudes. Moreover, many societies are not or do not feel they are exactly rich enough to be able to afford lifelong imprisonment for those convicted.
Interestingly, a very new study of rates of death sentencing in the USA has shown that if you murder a black in the USA, you are far less likely to get the death penalty than if you murder a white -- and that is regardess of whether you the offender are black or white yourself.
Quote:
... The study found that the odds of receiving a death sentence in North Carolina "in a white victim case are on average 2.96 times higher than are the odds of a death sentence in a black victim case."
"It turns out the race of the defendant doesn't matter at all," Radelet said. "It all depends on the race of the victims."
A study that Radelet conducted in Colorado yielded similar findings. He examined cases between 1980 and 1999 and found that prosecutors were more likely to seek the death penalty for those accused of killing whites. ...
"It turns out the race of the defendant doesn't matter at all," Radelet said. "It all depends on the race of the victims."
A study that Radelet conducted in Colorado yielded similar findings. He examined cases between 1980 and 1999 and found that prosecutors were more likely to seek the death penalty for those accused of killing whites. ...
What are my own personal feelings about it all? I think too many are wrongfully convicted to be able to support the death sentence; the problem is, once you're executed, finding out afterwards you were innocent is not going to help you much. That's a fairly practical reason not to have a death sentence; but then, quite a few end up in prison wrongfully comnvicted, and that's not a reason to abolish prison.
So I find I cannot support the death penalty; but I also don't get upset about it as much as I get upset about other things -- the treatment of the genuinely mentally ill in prison (as opposed to those faking it or those who are thought of as being mentally ill but who aren't) for example is a much bigger problem that affects far more people, and very nastily so, than does the death sentence.
Later on I will be doing blog posts on other associated questions, such as, "Does prison work?", a subject on which there is a hell of a lot to say, and so on, but for now, over to you, commentators.
You may also be interested in the data from the Death Penalty Information Center data clearinghouse, and in the graphic below, which shows number of executions since 1976 per each USA state (courtesy of this blogger, I believe):
Total Comments 29
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"So I find I cannot support the death penalty; but I also don't get upset about it as much as I get upset about other things "
But perhaps you would feel quite differently, if you were a poor and black person in the USA and therefore less likely to have adequate legal advice in the courts. Or someone who had been sentenced wrongly, and trying desperately to get a new trial.
I am also puzzled at the person who previously wanted to use prisoners as test animals, or simply execute them if their sentences were too long, but in the blog, wants to leave random notes to cheer people up? Perhaps the other statement was made in jest and I have missed the humourous reference?
I think it is possible that not being in constant peril of such a fate can perhaps make one too relaxed and so likely to be dismissive. If I have missed something, however, I do apologize. As I said in a previous comment, it is very possible my English is what is lacking.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 02:54 PM (14:54) by Unregistered -
If I was a poor person in the USA -- white or black, though especially black -- I would be much more likely to be much more worried about prison in general in the USA, than the death sentence. Or the risk of me ending up in prison if mentally ill (again, white, black or anything else).Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
"So I find I cannot support the death penalty; but I also don't get upset about it as much as I get upset about other things "
But perhaps you would feel quite differently, if you were a poor and black person in the USA and therefore less likely to have adequate legal advice in the courts. Or someone who had been sentenced wrongly, and trying desperately to get a new trial.
After all, my chances of prison would always be far higher than my chances of being executed, and prisons in the USA typically are not nice places at all. But you have reminded me to think of another factor to be looked at -- the death rate from prisoner-on-prisoner violence.
Excuse me? You seem to have mixed up two different things badly. If you're asking about comments that a particular commentator made on my previous blog post, then you'll just have to wait and see if that particular commentator turns up. Why ask me?Quote:I am also puzzled at the person who previously wanted to use prisoners as test animals, or simply execute them if their sentences were too long, but in the blog, wants to leave random notes to cheer people up? Perhaps the other statement was made in jest and I have missed the humourous reference?
Ah, no worries. I know what it's like. No need to apologize, and welcome to my blog. But I am sure you can see from my blog post I am not dismissive at all; in fact, I have made my non-dismissiveness very clear. I get very upset by the treatment of the mentally ill, in prison or out of it; in fact, I am writing a blog post about that right at the moment. I wrote here I get more passionate about the plight of the mentally ill in prison, because there are one hell of a lot more of them than those executed, and prison can destroy a mentally ill person totally. Prison in the USA often does become in practice a death sentence for a severely mentally ill person, whether in the short or long term, since they are unable to function well, unable to defend themselves in court proceedings well, and other prisoners target them unmercifully for fun and profit.Quote:I think it is possible that not being in constant peril of such a fate can perhaps make one too relaxed and so likely to be dismissive. If I have missed something, however, I do apologize. As I said in a previous comment, it is very possible my English is what is lacking.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:23 PM (15:23) by Gurdur 
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Oh, now I see what you mean. The particular commentator whom you are remarking on has also made a blog post, and you're remarking both on the previous comment and on that person's blog post. I didn't see that blog post till right now, so I had no idea what you were talking about.Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
... I am also puzzled at the person who previously wanted to use prisoners as test animals, or simply execute them if their sentences were too long, but in the blog, wants to leave random notes to cheer people up? Perhaps the other statement was made in jest and I have missed the humourous reference?
But in any case, my answer is still the same: ask her, not me. Maybe she'll turn up here in comments, maybe you can ask her on her own blog, up to you. But not much point in asking me.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:30 PM (15:30) by Gurdur
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Gawwwwd, ask me anything.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:39 PM (15:39) by MidnightWolf
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I've always stumbled over the notion that it's okay to kill someone to let others know killing is wrong. If it's not ok for the rest of us to take another's life then it can't be ok for the state to do it either. Perhaps it's just my warped ideas of fairness even though I know full well life is not fair.
There have been times in my life when I've felt angry enough to both do someone in and when I've been ok with the death penalty but these times tend to coincide so I tend to feel that support of the death penalty is mostly a reactionary stance rather than an intellectually supported one.
Thankfully, I've never actually committed murder nor have I ever been wrongly accused/convicted. Neither have I been incarcerated whilst suffering from mental illness and I'm sure my shade of skin has gotten me out of trouble on occasion. But I don't think we can have the death penalty if even one person is executed wrongly. Not if we want to call ourselves a free society.
As for testing drugs on inmates, I want to mention one name: Josef Mengele. Surely, we don't really want to be like him...do we?Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:40 PM (15:40) by Marian
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But, testing drugs on animals is POINTLESS. Animals are not humans. Drugs DO NOT react on humans the same way they do on animals.
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:42 PM (15:42) by MidnightWolf
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Holy crap! That's not an excuse! WTF??????
And I'm not the other guy, so don't blame me for what anybody else said.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:51 PM (15:51) by Unregistered -
I'm going to add something here.
I don't support the death sentence, but I cannot find it in me to get too upset when someone like Brian Dugan gets executed for having kidnapped, raped and murdered children. In Dugan's case, the guilt became clear.
I just don't see someone like Brian Dugan deserving life. The death sentence may be not a good thing if society can afford lifelong imprisonment, but Brian Dugan was not someone who had a great right to life --- and far more people die every day from filthy drinking water than from legal executions, which brings up questions of inequality in international relations, and of corrupt governments and so on.
On the drugs-testing on prisoners; I'm going to say not only would it violate human rights, but it would also be often a very bad idea, since often part of drugs trials must depend on reliable self-reports from those on whom the drugs were tested. It would also be a nightmare to implement, given the very strict controls you would need; after all, a lot of prisoners take drugs illegally, and that would stuff up your drugs trials too.
So human rights and reliability of test results would both tell against using prisoners for experimentation (we haven't even gotten around to discussing whioch prisoners to use, either).
By the way, for a period when I first arrived in Germany, part of how I financially supported myself was by volunteering for every medical drug and psychological experiment I could find and be accepted into. I have a few funny stories from that period. I was quite a professional test rabbit for a while.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:58 PM (15:58) by Gurdur
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OK, everyone, BLAME THIS PERSON FOR EVERYTHING, whoever this person may be.Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
.... And I'm not the other guy, so don't blame me for what anybody else said.
(joke, in case anyone couldn't tell)Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 03:59 PM (15:59) by Gurdur
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Tbh, if the death penalty came back it might help with prison overcrowding ^_^
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:07 PM (16:07) by MidnightWolf
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...and so much cheaper than working to prevent crime in the first place.
Are we really going to start killing people because it is cheaper and saves space? The US, Canada, and the UK are not 3rd world countries. (Though a McPalin presidency could change that for the US.)
As for drug testing, why fall into the trap of either prisoners or animals? Both should have rights to humane treatment. Why not make the extra effort to seek another solution?
Or is everything about the cost/convenience/easy access of those who lack power and a voice, and nothing about right and wrong?
I have an idea. Test the drugs on the corporate executives of of Big Pharma. Stop putting people in prison when they should be in drug rehab. Stop giving money to Halliburton and such and put it into schools and housing.
Oh, wait. That's not practical. Let's pollute the planet, and kill everyone who isn't rich or powerful. Much more sensible.
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:19 PM (16:19) by Unregistered -
Agreed ^_^Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
As for drug testing, why fall into the trap of either prisoners or animals? Both should have rights to humane treatment. Why not make the extra effort to seek another solution?...
Gurdur, I like this person. Can we keep him/her? PLEASE.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:22 PM (16:22) by MidnightWolf
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That will be a subject of new blog posts of mine later.Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
...and so much cheaper than working to prevent crime in the first place.
Only if I get my new raygun. But basically, how about the lack of provision of clean drinking water? How many people do you think die of that?Quote:Are we really going to start killing people because it is cheaper and saves space?
How do you think those affected very badly by pollution in China feel about their nondemocratic government, and what do yo think that government does when it jails people for protesting about famine, pollution, unemployment and so on?
Noticed the budget slashes in Britain, and how the Conservatives claim it's all about handing back power (without the cash) to the community?Quote:Or is everything about the cost/convenience/
I blog as much as I can. And more. Personally, I donate to a good many different charities.Quote:easy access of those who lack power and a voice, and nothing about right and wrong?
Everyone's ignoring my bit about having been a test rabbit. Test the drugs on poor students, that's what is done already, and the students like the cash. I should know.Quote:I have an idea. Test the drugs on the corporate executives of of Big Pharma.
Nowhere near that simple, not with drug addicts. Really, most druggies have no intention of getting off drugs.Quote:Stop putting people in prison when they should be in drug rehab.
You can't simply say put money into rehab as though that would solve the problem; it doesn't. A good much more is necessary than that.
Well, I try not to.Quote:Stop giving money to HalliburtonPosted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:30 PM (16:30) by Gurdur
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Ha! First blog comment ever and they want to keep me. Go me!
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:30 PM (16:30) by Unregistered -
New blog post of mine up:
Some of my best friends are psychotics, but they're not nutters like Raoul MoatPosted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:32 PM (16:32) by Gurdur
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"Only if I get my new raygun. But basically, how about the lack of provision of clean drinking water? How many people do you think die of that?
How do you think those affected very badly by pollution in China feel about their nondemocratic government, and what do yo think that government does when it jails people for protesting about famine, pollution, unemployment and so on?"
This is an excuse for doing stupid shit here in our own countries? You're joking, right?Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:33 PM (16:33) by Unregistered -
Every cloud has a silver lining, and all that.Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
Ha! First blog comment ever and they want to keep me. Go me!
Isn't it nice how we can all get together, and, and, and, ah, riot against each other? Or something?Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:33 PM (16:33) by Gurdur
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Join us! *evil laugh*Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
Ha! First blog comment ever and they want to keep me. Go me!
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:34 PM (16:34) by MidnightWolf
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*sigh*Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
"Only if I get my new raygun. But basically, how about the lack of provision of clean drinking water? How many people do you think die of that?
How do you think those affected very badly by pollution in China feel about their nondemocratic government, and what do yo think that government does when it jails people for protesting about famine, pollution, unemployment and so on?"
This is an excuse for doing stupid shit here in our own countries? You're joking, right?
You really don't get my point?
Let me make it very clear for you.
Every day you do not do something when you could -- no matter how little, as long as it's something genuine -- you are morally involved in the deaths of all those. Do you get this?
Every time you do not do something when you could, you are morally culpable.
So if you want to shout about doing something, then start by tackling those much bigger problems first. Let us know what you're doing.
And if you think I am excusing "stupid shit here in our own countries" with that, you are totally wrong.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:37 PM (16:37) by Gurdur
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Is it just me, or it getting confusing with all the unregistered people?
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:45 PM (16:45) by MidnightWolf
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I really bloody wish anonymous commentators would identify themselves with some sort of nickname at least, so readers could keep a sense of who is saying what.Quote:Originally Posted by MidnightWolf
Is it just me, or it getting confusing with all the unregistered people?
On the other hand, I allowed anonymous comments. We will see how it all goes.Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:48 PM (16:48) by Gurdur
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Damn anons *shakes fist* Make yourselves known.
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 04:53 PM (16:53) by MidnightWolf
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@MidnightWolf,
Actually, in many significant and fairly reliable ways, certain animals make terrific analogs to humans, i.e. mice, rabbits, pigs.... While I do feel that we should treat all life with respect I have a question:
Is it okay to make 10 animals sick/dead if it could save 100 humans from a terrible disease?
I don't agree that prisoners should be used as lab-rats but I suppose you might convince of ways to *allow* them to become lab-rats, if it were shown that the data gathered would be worth the effort getting it.
Oh one other comment: there is a wide variety of drug-response even within the human population... making a drug that shows no major ill-effect on 100 prisoners doesn't mean that it's safe for the general population...
^CBPosted 30-Jul-2010 at 07:31 PM (19:31) by Unregistered -
Holy crap, I missed a lot due to fallout 3.
Unregistered:
LOL.Quote:Originally Posted by Unregistered
Test the drugs and products on your politicians.
And, sorry Gurdur. You bring up anything related to the justice system, and in my experience at some point, the death penalty comes up. I think it's just one of those subjects. You've done a really great job, you and Lifelinking both, of dodging it thus far. *now reads comments on this post*Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 07:54 PM (19:54) by Makbawehuh
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Yes, yes. *rubs hands together, cackles* We have cookies.Quote:Originally Posted by MidnightWolf
Join us! *evil laugh*
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 08:03 PM (20:03) by Makbawehuh
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Tasty, tasty cookies
Posted 30-Jul-2010 at 08:55 PM (20:55) by MidnightWolf
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I have been against the death penalty all my adult life. Over thirty years of working in law enforcement and the study of criminology have only served to strengthen this view. Well considered piece Gurdur.Posted 31-Jul-2010 at 10:12 PM (22:12) by lifelinking 
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Many thanks, but this one was really just rushed random thoughts.Quote:Originally Posted by lifelinking
.... Well considered piece Gurdur.
Posted 31-Jul-2010 at 11:12 PM (23:12) by Gurdur
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I like the honesty of this.Quote:So I find I cannot support the death penalty; but I also don't get upset about it as much as I get upset about other things
Posted 01-Aug-2010 at 12:08 AM (00:08) by lifelinking
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