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Hey every what are your top or favorite philosophical arguments?

 
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Old 25-Feb-2010, 06:40 AM (06:40)     1        37397
boyrodgers09
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Default Hey every what are your top or favorite philosophical arguments?

Anyway, what I wanting to ask you guys is what is your top and or most convincing arguments and evidences for atheism (I'm mostly looking for philosophical evidences for thead since I'm posting in the intellectual section)

Let's see mine are the problem of evil and the lack of supernatural evidences.

Also here are some of the very good responses I got from the fine folks at Free Ratio and the Secular Cafe...

Hey every what are your top or favorite arguments? - FRDB

Top evidences for atheism... - Secular Café


But anyway I look foward to seeing your responses! Thank you for your time and take care.
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Old 25-Feb-2010, 09:13 PM (21:13)     2        37423
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Which form(s) of the POE in particular do you find convincing?

How does one go about formulating an argument based on lack of supernatural evidences? Is it possible to avoid it being an argument from ignorance?
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Old 25-Feb-2010, 09:31 PM (21:31)     3        37428
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One interesting factoid about the POE (Problem of Evil) argument is that any competent Christian, Muslim or Jewish theologian can win the argument on logical grounds (but only as long as the argument is severely restricted to the POE itself and not on then to the nature of God), but on moral grounds, any competent atheist can win it.

This has an interesting tie-in to:
- my criticisms of fellow atheists pretending to think rationalism and logic are the only things that matter

- and my later blog posts to come on the nature of insanity; insanity is not determined by lack of rationalism -- meet a clinical paranoid and get into conversation with him to find out why, or talk to someone on the halfway mark up the ascending slope of bipolar syndrome mania -- but instead determined in practice by lack of reasonableness, whioch includes one hell of a lot more than just logic.
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Old 25-Feb-2010, 09:43 PM (21:43)     4        37432
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Atheism is a symptom exhibited by those who haven't gotten over their "god issues", of course it exists, people have big discussion boards and discuss it all the time.
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Old 25-Feb-2010, 10:02 PM (22:02)     5        37433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicat View Post
Atheism is a symptom exhibited by those who haven't gotten over their "god issues"
Well, to tell the truth, I can't think of any issues I have gotten over.
Should one really get over issues? Is "closure" an unfortunate illusion? Warrented?

Mind you, I also happily play the Cartheginians in Rome : Total War, so I haven't gotten over the bastard Roman genocidists either.
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Just having fun. I do know what you mean.
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Old 26-Feb-2010, 04:09 AM (04:09)     6        37456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurdur View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicat View Post
Atheism is a symptom exhibited by those who haven't gotten over their "god issues"
Well, to tell the truth, I can't think of any issues I have gotten over.
Should one really get over issues? Is "closure" an unfortunate illusion? Warrented?

Mind you, I also happily play the Cartheginians in Rome : Total War, so I haven't gotten over the bastard Roman genocidists either.
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Just having fun. I do know what you mean.
Lol
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Old 27-Feb-2010, 12:05 PM (12:05)     7        37498
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1) assumption: there exists at least one person who agrees with your opinion
2) from 1: not everyone disagrees with your opinion
3) by observation: you are not me
4) from 3: you are not everyone
5) from 2 and 4: you disagree with your opinion
6) from 1 and 5: 5 is logically absurd, therefore 1 is false
7) from 1 and 6: therefore nobody agrees with your opinion
QED.
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Old 27-Feb-2010, 02:39 PM (14:39)     8        37500
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I disagree with my own opinions all the time, not too absurd, mmm morning waffling.
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Old 27-Feb-2010, 05:57 PM (17:57)     9        37527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
1) assumption: there exists at least one person who agrees with your opinion
2) from 1: not everyone disagrees with your opinion
3) by observation: you are not me
4) from 3: you are not everyone
5) from 2 and 4: you disagree with your opinion
6) from 1 and 5: 5 is logically absurd, therefore 1 is false
7) from 1 and 6: therefore nobody agrees with your opinion
QED.
Ha! Had a bit of a problem following, but nice.
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Old 27-Feb-2010, 08:52 PM (20:52)     10        37541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
1) assumption: there exists at least one person who agrees with your opinion
2) from 1: not everyone disagrees with your opinion
3) by observation: you are not me
4) from 3: you are not everyone
5) from 2 and 4: you disagree with your opinion
6) from 1 and 5: 5 is logically absurd, therefore 1 is false
7) from 1 and 6: therefore nobody agrees with your opinion
QED.
Ha! Had a bit of a problem following, but nice.
So you think this is a sound argument, ughaibu & Fizzle? I assumed it was just for fun...
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Old 27-Feb-2010, 09:08 PM (21:08)     11        37543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
1) assumption: there exists at least one person who agrees with your opinion
2) from 1: not everyone disagrees with your opinion
3) by observation: you are not me
4) from 3: you are not everyone
5) from 2 and 4: you disagree with your opinion
6) from 1 and 5: 5 is logically absurd, therefore 1 is false
7) from 1 and 6: therefore nobody agrees with your opinion
QED.
Ha! Had a bit of a problem following, but nice.
So you think this is a sound argument, ughaibu & Fizzle? I assumed it was just for fun...
Not really, it's just wordgames. I don't actually see how 1 is invalidated by 1 and 5.
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Old 27-Feb-2010, 09:17 PM (21:17)     12        37545
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I really need to set up my planned logic & natural language tree parser on the server. Huge work, though. But ughaibu's set is just so perfect for it. Oh well, I could do it all by hand, but I won't interrupt till you guys are finished.
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 01:49 AM (01:49)     13        37576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
So you think this is a sound argument, ughaibu & Fizzle? I assumed it was just for fun...
Not really, it's just wordgames. I don't actually see how 1 is invalidated by 1 and 5.
I think it's okay to claim that 5 refutes 1, the problem is before that.
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 01:52 AM (01:52)     14        37577
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The problem is 5 itself. Can you see why?
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 02:01 AM (02:01)     15        37578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
The problem is 5 itself. Can you see why?
Sure. However, if there's a logic within which the thing can be validly formalised, then there'll be no problem. Now I just need to design a suitable logic!
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 02:04 AM (02:04)     16        37580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
The problem is 5 itself. Can you see why?
Sure. However, if there's a logic within which the thing can be validly formalised, then there'll be no problem. Now I just need to design a suitable logic!
A possible problem might be that noone (including yourself!) will agree that your logic is suitable!
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 02:15 AM (02:15)     17        37582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Sure. However, if there's a logic within which the thing can be validly formalised, then there'll be no problem. Now I just need to design a suitable logic!
A possible problem might be that noone (including yourself!) will agree that your logic is suitable!
Nevertheless, the beauty of disagreeable logic will compensate for the general discord entailed, and unetailed, and entailed, and. . . .
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 03:26 AM (03:26)     18        37590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
So you think this is a sound argument, ughaibu & Fizzle? I assumed it was just for fun...
Not really, it's just wordgames. I don't actually see how 1 is invalidated by 1 and 5.
I think it's okay to claim that 5 refutes 1, the problem is before that.
I dunno, if "you disagree with your opinion is false" then that means that there exists someone (you) that agrees with your opinion.

As to 5:

"not everyone" disagrees with your opinion(2)

You are "not everyone" (as in you=someone=not everyone)

therefore you (not everyone) disagree with your opinion.

Well, fuck, I believe I don't get the problem.
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 03:39 AM (03:39)     19        37594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzle View Post
Not really, it's just wordgames. I don't actually see how 1 is invalidated by 1 and 5.
I think it's okay to claim that 5 refutes 1, the problem is before that.
I dunno, if "you disagree with your opinion is false" then that means that there exists someone (you) that agrees with your opinion.

As to 5:

"not everyone" disagrees with your opinion(2)

You are "not everyone" (as in you=someone=not everyone)

therefore you (not everyone) disagree with your opinion.

Well, fuck, I believe I don't get the problem.
Hint: it has to do with the way "not" is used.
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 04:58 AM (04:58)     20        37595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
The problem is 5 itself. Can you see why?
Sure. However, if there's a logic within which the thing can be validly formalised, then there'll be no problem. Now I just need to design a suitable logic!
Not really. I did think about that angle, but I don't see it myself. I liked your set because it was nifty as a great example for tree parsing, and to show how the old 3-thimble/pea shell-game goes. I did think of the re-logicking to do a validity fix, but I decided any such re-logic became internally necessarily contradictory, therefore unsuccessful.

I am however really glad to see such a conversation going on between all here, and I hope it continues. I assume y'all know Lews Carroll's sets of seven lines, a bit like yours, but mostly valid? Lot of fun, building very slowly a limited natural language and logic tree parser in PROLOG to process them in front of the viewer, from a web server like this one.
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Old 28-Feb-2010, 07:21 PM (19:21)     21        37617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by logika View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ughaibu View Post
Sure. However, if there's a logic within which the thing can be validly formalised, then there'll be no problem. Now I just need to design a suitable logic!
A possible problem might be that noone (including yourself!) will agree that your logic is suitable!
Nevertheless, the beauty of disagreeable logic will compensate for the general discord entailed, and unetailed, and entailed, and. . . .

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Old 01-Mar-2010, 02:22 PM (14:22)     22        37648
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"you" are part of "everyone."
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 05:51 PM (17:51)     23        37683
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I should, in theory, be able to take that comment of yours and twist it into something really insane... But I'm not caffienated enough for that right now, so just assume I did.
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 05:58 PM (17:58)     24        37684
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Oh, yes I think you could, I'll assume it was awesomely twisted and brilliant.
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 06:07 PM (18:07)     25        37690
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Thanks. I love it when people assume I'm witty. ^__^ Hopefully it was laden with irony.

Gosh. When I'm caffienated enough to actually think of something, I hope it's up to par.
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 07:15 PM (19:15)     26        37706
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If I was part of everyone, I think an awful lot of people would feel very disturbed.
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 07:19 PM (19:19)     27        37708
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...It'd be like Cassandra in the Doctor Who episode "New Earth". *snickers*
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 07:44 PM (19:44)     28        37715
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Quote:
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If I was part of everyone, I think an awful lot of people would feel very disturbed.
How about your kids (hypothetical kids if you don't have them)? Are you part of them? Genetically, you sure are. How about your distant ancestors who are part of you? Go far enough back and there's people who really are part of everyone, so if we evolved from a common ancestor we really are one big family. And we could even extend this to all living things. Seems to promote more community and tolerance than any doctrine of a special chosen people.
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Old 01-Mar-2010, 08:29 PM (20:29)     29        37730
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You speak like a geneaologist, Alicat. :P

My mom does geneaology (sp) and gets all excited when she finds a "cousin". I've rather given up on trying to keep them all straight, cause she's in contact with a few hundred people who're related to us on a regular basis... We actually found out that she and my stepdad are like, sixth cousins on her mother's side. Which is kinda funny, cause he surely looks like it.

Anyways, yes. My mom likes to go on about how we're all related if you go back far enough, and she's actually got a lot of paperwork to show that it's true if you just scale it up.

I stopped thinking about it because it made my mind hurt in ways that I only like to think about when I'm -trying- to break reality.
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Old 02-Mar-2010, 12:26 AM (00:26)     30        37769
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I agree, Alicat. And Makbawehuh, if you think that hurts, ponder this:

A (male) marries B (my parents)
A's sister, C, marries D.
A & B have E & F, myself and one of my sisters.
C & D have G & H, two boys and my cousins.

Both couples get divorced.
Then B (my mother) marries D, my ex-uncle.

So not only was my uncle my stepdad, my cousin was also my stepbrother.
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