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"2012": Opening a Passage into the Future?

 
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Old 21-Apr-2010, 12:48 AM (00:48)     31        39198
ouinon
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... Believing [ that ] nothing is under our control is equally oppressive, untrue and unhelpful in the end.
I haven't had that experience of it yet!

It's over two years now since I stopped believing in free will, and it's still sinking in/penetrating to other areas of belief, eg. until just this last Christmas I still thought/laboured under the misapprehension that my thoughts and beliefs were still somehow in charge of things, however out of "my" control I had accepted them to be.

It's as if my "I" is getting smaller and smaller, because now the only thing I still tentatively believe "I" am in control of is my "eye"/attention, and even that I'm not sure about. All "I" am is a watcher of this body ( including brain ). It's been fascinating so far.

What happened for you? How long before it became oppresssive etc? Why do you think it did? I do sometimes wonder where exactly the belief is taking me, but for the moment it's "fun"! ( Especially now that my faith in food has been made more visible to me ).

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Last edited by ouinon; 21-Apr-2010 at 12:54 AM (00:54).
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Old 21-Apr-2010, 01:04 AM (01:04)     32        39199
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I find both extremes oppressive, and have pretty much always done so; as far as I see my life, it's always been about restoring the balance, and tweaking the moment of balance.
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Old 21-Apr-2010, 01:12 AM (01:12)     33        39200
ouinon
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I find both extremes oppressive, and have pretty much always done so; as far as I see my life, it's always been about restoring the balance, and tweaking the moment of balance.
Did you ever stop believing in free will though? I would be very interested to hear about the experience of anyone who has done so and then gone back to believing in it.

I tend to go from one extreme to another, almost as if that's how I detect balance, something like thesis - antithesis - synthesis.

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Old 21-Apr-2010, 01:23 AM (01:23)     34        39201
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I find both extremes oppressive, and have pretty much always done so; as far as I see my life, it's always been about restoring the balance, and tweaking the moment of balance.
Did you ever stop believing in free will though?
No, I don't think I ever have. The empirical observations are simply too great for me to ignore; limited free will works.

Like anyone else, I have had to recognise when certain things are beyond my control, and I have had to learn how to stop worrying about such things; but as far as I remember, I don't think I have ever believed free will does not exist -- and I have carefully examined all that which people cite as evidence against free will.

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I tend to go from one extreme to another, almost as if that's how I detect balance, something like thesis - antithesis - synthesis.

.
I can understand that; and into addition, you are also playing with a million ideas all together at any one time. I can relate to that, and I greatly enjoy your posts and blog posts. Be aware, though, it can be very frustrating for others; some need to consider what to actually do, and they cannot handle apparent aimless playing around with ideas and concepts. As for me, like I said, while I am worlds apart from you in point of view, I greatly enjoy your posts and blog posts -- but I also concentrate on just what is one to do, on one idea or a few ideas at any one time.
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Old 21-Apr-2010, 02:58 AM (02:58)     35        39204
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I tend to go from one extreme to another, almost as if that's how I detect balance, something like thesis - antithesis - synthesis.
I can understand that; and into addition, you are also playing with a million ideas all together at any one time. I can relate to that, and I greatly enjoy your posts and blog posts. Be aware, though, it can be very frustrating for others; some need to consider what to actually do, and they cannot handle apparent aimless playing around with ideas and concepts. As for me, like I said, while I am worlds apart from you in point of view, I greatly enjoy your posts and blog posts -- but I also concentrate on just what is one to do, on one idea or a few ideas at any one time.
I think most people do that to some extent, Ouinon, though most people aren't really all that aware of it.

Personally, I like the apparrently aimless playing with ideas, but then, even though we have very (very, very) different points of view in many areas, I can understand and appreciate the thought process... Or at least I appreciate and understand the spirit of it. Sometimes I think my thought process is more akin to someone with ADD in a room filled with shiny or otherwise interesting objects, though.
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Old 21-Apr-2010, 04:14 PM (16:14)     36        39211
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Did you ever stop believing in free will though?
No ... The empirical observations are simply too great for me to ignore ... and I have carefully examined all that which people cite as evidence against free will.
I think there is about as much empirical evidence for the existence of free will as there was once for the sun going round the earth. The concept of free will "feels" true, it's the description of a subjective experience. But that doesn't mean it is "true" ( "objectively" ). Apparently Galileo's claims were very flimsily, even poorly, supported by his observations, and the church respected scientific standards of the time in dismissing his theories, ... refuting his ideas stimulated even greater scientific rigour in fact.

But one could quite reasonably ask what difference it makes to most people's lives, knowing that the earth actually goes round the sun? What difference does it make to me, for instance? ( Sherlock Holmes actually says, when Dr Watson informs him of the heliocentric nature of our solar system, that he will immediately do his best to forget the information ). The counter-intuitive idea that the earth goes round the sun could in fact look like "aimless playing around with ideas and concepts".

.

Last edited by ouinon; 21-Apr-2010 at 04:37 PM (16:37).
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Old 21-Apr-2010, 06:34 PM (18:34)     37        39217
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... I think there is about as much empirical evidence for the existence of free will as there was once for the sun going round the earth.
Nope. But I shall blog on that.

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The concept of free will "feels" true,
I'm not into feelings as proof of anything at all. I am into feeling up, when I can, but that's another matter. The empirical evidence for evolved free will is just that, in my eyes, empirical and external to observers.

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... it's the description of a subjective experience. But that doesn't mean it is "true" ( "objectively" ).
I'm not just a pretty face, you know.
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