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Old 03-Nov-2010, 10:22 AM (10:22)     61        41665
FrDavidCloake
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Re hangouts - yes, I agree with all your points, and for what it is worth, I am not in any way fond of Christian boards. Christians have an annoying habit of believing that they are right, and that QED everyone else is wrong - it is a symptom of the evangelicalisation of the church in part. I belonged to an internet church once (anonymity is nice at times in my game, just to be a worshipper and not its leader) - and it rates as one of the vilest places filled some of the most close-minded bigots and nutters I have met and encountered. Blogging is step towards a re-visiting of electronic media in faith life, as I came away from that 'church' very disillusioned. For what it is worth, and I repeat my own point, I am not here to preach or prosylitise. Openness in membership is only good if those members are themselves open - and here I feel like that box is ticked!

Muddleglum - i'd be interested to hear your perspective on the issue!

Scripture
- The problem that the church has, inside and outside, is the bread-crumb effect - wanging out one-liners to prove their own point. Every line of scripture has a far wider context that mitigates the line used, and to do one without the other is poor exegesis. It is this use of scripture that I regard as flawed, and the same applies or anyone quoting any reference material in a selctive fashion. Understanding varies for all of us, but the throw text as people surely demands a proper grasp of the weapon of choice?!

Prof Dawkins - my personal and direct experience is, I admit, limited - but what he is doing is closing debates, not opening them - and that can never be good.

Last edited by FrDavidCloake; 03-Nov-2010 at 10:24 AM (10:24). Reason: spelling, as always
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Old 03-Nov-2010, 06:28 PM (18:28)     62        41666
muddleglum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makbawehuh View Post
...When everyone's spouting drivel, they should at least be having the same debate and listening to each other's drivel. Which was my point.
Sweet! Makbawehuh,
...and asking themselves how their own drivel sounds to others. I guess I must sound like a complete nutter, as FrDavidCloake would say.

Hey! That means I finally achieved perfection!
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Old 03-Nov-2010, 10:48 PM (22:48)     63        41668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelinking View Post
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Uh-oh! Almost looks like the opposite of my viewpoint--Faith, by its very nature [already has its] proof.
Yes! I noticed this. I am still putting a blog piece together about faith in its various guises, so this is very interesting to me.
Somehow I missed this, Lifelinking. Sorry.

See if you can find some sort of Greek source for the original meaning of the Greek word. Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament seems to have a good overview of the meanings back in classical times and later--both profane and religious. Some interesting quotes on the atheist versus theist wars even back in the Hellenistic age when pist- started moving more into the philosophical domain. (It might have something good about the use of the word group in the LXX, Philo and the N.T., but one can more easily find copies of the original source material and study them for oneself.)

+But surely you can find more information now. Perseus?
Note: Maybe one of the others hubbites can help you on this.

Last edited by muddleglum; 03-Nov-2010 at 10:56 PM (22:56). Reason: add
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Old 03-Nov-2010, 11:03 PM (23:03)     64        41669
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Well, I have been looking at sources such as you, Jung and Joseph Campbell. So you are in interesting company.
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Old 03-Nov-2010, 11:08 PM (23:08)     65        41671
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Muddleglum, can you please write up a post describing the history of the word faith?
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Old 03-Nov-2010, 11:18 PM (23:18)     66        41672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavidCloake View Post
Muddleglum - i'd be interested to hear your perspective on the issue!
I'll wait for Lifelinking to post. I would hate to steal his thunder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavidCloake View Post
Scripture [/B]- The problem that the church has, inside and outside, is the bread-crumb effect - wanging out one-liners to prove their own point. Every line of scripture has a far wider context that mitigates the line used, and to do one without the other is poor exegesis. It is this use of scripture that I regard as flawed, and the same applies or anyone quoting any reference material in a selctive fashion. Understanding varies for all of us, but the throw text as people surely demands a proper grasp of the weapon of choice?!
Some questions from an ignorant and naive man:
1. bread-crumb effect: I'm not familiar with this metaphor in this context. Please expound. A fast scan of Google leaves me in the flour dust, which everyone knows is explosive in elevated thinking.
2. The last sentence is difficult. Could you clarify, please? Nevermind. the->to; as->at; and the sentence works.

Thank you and apologies all around for the word play.
.

Last edited by muddleglum; 03-Nov-2010 at 11:24 PM (23:24).
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 12:14 AM (00:14)     67        41675
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Muddleglum, can you please write up a post describing the history of the word faith?

Don't know. I'm now far from any useful library, and my knowledge of non-koine Greek is reliant on the koine, (which has gone downhill since I stopped reading for practice.) I would more or less plagiarize Kittel, which is a copyright violation and would land me in jail. You wouldn't want to expose the poor, innocent lambs there to me, would you?

Thought not!

Seriously, though, I currently couldn't give the subject the treatment it deserves. I googled a bit on the 'Net, but nothing leaped into my eyes. If I do run into something later, I'll be happy to post.
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 01:20 AM (01:20)     68        41677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddleglum View Post

...and asking themselves how their own drivel sounds to others.
That too. I think most people would stop spouting their drivel if they realized they sounded like a total nutcase.

...

.....

...No, I'm not going to stop, just so you all know.
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 01:56 AM (01:56)     69        41680
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Makbawehuh - In terms of debating I've never seen him be straight up disrespectful to anyone he debated. The drivel I'm thinking of is when people try to argue with him over their personal revelations. The only response I remember hearing from him is that revelation, by definition, is not debatable because only one person can be a witness to it. I've never seen him try to argue a point that he couldn't back up with evidence.
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 02:08 AM (02:08)     70        41681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavidCloake View Post
Scripture - The problem that the church has, inside and outside, is the bread-crumb effect - wanging out one-liners to prove their own point. Every line of scripture has a far wider context that mitigates the line used, and to do one without the other is poor exegesis. It is this use of scripture that I regard as flawed, and the same applies or anyone quoting any reference material in a selctive fashion. Understanding varies for all of us, but the throw text as people surely demands a proper grasp of the weapon of choice?!
I see how people can interpret scriptures differently and how that would effect a group of people trying to work together when they are all of the same faith and interpret the same scripture differently, but how does intra-faith semantic squabbling effect believer, non-believer cooperation?
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 02:56 AM (02:56)     71        41682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homo hirsutus View Post
Makbawehuh - In terms of debating I've never seen him be straight up disrespectful to anyone he debated. The drivel I'm thinking of is when people try to argue with him over their personal revelations. The only response I remember hearing from him is that revelation, by definition, is not debatable because only one person can be a witness to it. I've never seen him try to argue a point that he couldn't back up with evidence.
Perhaps we have different ideas of disrespect, here; I don't see the purpose of discounting other people's wild ideas when you've got a fair few of your own that you want to air.

Which I have seen him do, and it was enough to make my jaw hit the ground. Personally, if Dawkins actually believes some of what he says, then I think he's just as cracked as the people he's debating with.

Either way, I'm not going to sit here and argue point of view with you. It doesn't strike me as going anywhere useful, and a debate over Richard Dawkins character is not what Gurdur asked for. :P
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 04:26 AM (04:26)     72        41683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homo hirsutus View Post
The drivel I'm thinking of is when people try to argue with him over their personal revelations. The only response I remember hearing from him is that revelation, by definition, is not debatable because only one person can be a witness to it. I've never seen him try to argue a point that he couldn't back up with evidence.
Interesting. Did you happen to hear where he got that definition? I've never heard it before and that is certainly not the understanding I have from other sources. I, myself, have been in situations where more than two people have been involved in a revelation and the Christian Bible has instances of the same.

Now that doesn't mean that one outside the witnesses or who don't know the character of the witness has to believe, but within that group, it is debatable as to interpretation.
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 04:41 AM (04:41)     73        41685
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Would people please use this new thread to do Dawkins on? Many thanks, just concerned about derails.
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 07:06 AM (07:06)     74        41687
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Sorry Gurdur. Anyways. Yes. Thoughts on blockages to interfaith pplz workin' together?
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 07:38 AM (07:38)     75        41689
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I just find it ironic that the reason why there are so many different divisions within faith groups is because they couldn't agree on the details so they created their own churches etc. Now, these groups are having problems working together...hmm, I wonder why
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 07:45 AM (07:45)     76        41690
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Indeed. They have no bacon to bind them.
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Old 04-Nov-2010, 01:09 PM (13:09)     77        41691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makbawehuh View Post
Thoughts on blockages to interfaith pplz workin' together?
First of all, the groups in question will have to figure out just what it is they are trying to accomplish by "working together". I have seen no statement of an actual goal by anyone.
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Old 05-Nov-2010, 04:07 AM (04:07)     78        41698
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Gurdur didn't ask for a goal. :P
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Old 05-Nov-2010, 01:09 PM (13:09)     79        41704
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Well, I take a day off and lose pace!

Bread-crumb Effect: it is my own term for a way that certian groups in at least two faith organisations use their scriptures. When you eat bread, do you eat it crumb at a time, or do you take a bigger and fuller bite and savour the experience? Use of the scripture in a divisive way does the former - it hits 'encounter opportunities' with odd words and half-lines as a way of defending a point of view. Muslims and Christians can and done this with devastating effect. I can prove and defend any standpoint I like using tiny gobbets of unconnected Scripture (I imagine), but I would also be using it irresponsibly. Each Book of my Bible is a living context in which its debates and points raised should be couched. After all, if we didn't do that we would still be stoning people in public squares. It is a use of the Bible that I have greatest issue on with the Jehovah Witnesses who underwrite every statement with a fragmentary scriptural reference - and as such it makes them hard to assail, or even talk with. Scripture is a bag of bricks - you can throw them at people one by one, build a wall, or build a bridge to others. That choice is in the hands of its 'user'

As I can only really speak for Christians, we can only engage is dialogue with anyone if we use our own resource correctly and discerningly. If we can't get our own exegesis and internal hermeneutic right, we stand little chance of engaging with the world outside our Medieval doors
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Old 05-Nov-2010, 05:13 PM (17:13)     80        41706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavidCloake View Post
... As I can only really speak for Christians, we can only engage is dialogue with anyone if we use our own resource correctly and discerningly. If we can't get our own exegesis and internal hermeneutic right, we stand little chance of engaging with the world outside our Medieval doors
Very true, and goes for everyone. I read a very interesting take on this in a political context; if one does not present what is really one's core stance, but instead one presents a kind of cover, then the cover will be addressed by opponents, but the underlying real debate will never be addressed.

In any case, thread going very well, thanks! After all, we are exploring grounds for ... simply talking to each other, not debating; finding common ground rather than differences. Or IOW overcoming differences to find what common ground we can meet on.
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Old 05-Nov-2010, 05:23 PM (17:23)     81        41707
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Quote:
the groups in question will have to figure out just what it is they are trying to accomplish by "working together".
I think this is very true Seeker, and not just of Interfaith work.
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Old 05-Nov-2010, 09:38 PM (21:38)     82        41710
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Bread-crumb Effect: it is my own term...
Thank you for your explanation. One should be careful of one's definitions. I was not aware that you were defining your term in the first place and wanted to make sure we were in the same set of books.
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Old 06-Nov-2010, 02:25 AM (02:25)     83        41712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavidCloake View Post
As I can only really speak for Christians, we can only engage is dialogue with anyone if we use our own resource correctly and discerningly. If we can't get our own exegesis and internal hermeneutic right, we stand little chance of engaging with the world outside our Medieval doors
Ah! Now I get it. That makes a lot of sense, but sounds like an infinitely difficult task. I don't have a lot (any) experience working with faith-non-faith dialogue, but I would imagine that for these two groups to have any successful dialogue we would have to stick to shared principles which, in this case, would rule out discussion of scripture. But, I can imagine scenarios where this is an issue.
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Old 08-Nov-2010, 11:53 AM (11:53)     84        41759
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Agree with Seeker and Gurdur

...though I sort of sense we are already doing what we are trying to define. I sense that all parties are happy anf feel this to be mutual. In part, lack of labels is good - though I recognise I have applied one to my login name - I am happy to talk, less worries about to whom and less worried still about their faith-stance. This feels mutual, reciprocal, non-judgemental and balanced. I am glad to be here with all of you at this point in time!
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