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David Silverman on Brave Hero Radio

 
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Old 16-Jun-2013, 02:56 PM (14:56)     1        47316
D4M10N
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Default David Silverman on Brave Hero Radio

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/bravehe...avid-silverman

I love the image header on that episode.

What did you guys think of the show?
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Old 16-Jun-2013, 03:22 PM (15:22)     2        47317
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0xgszZXq-Q
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Love is that condition in which one person's happiness is essential to your own.-Heinlein
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Old 16-Jun-2013, 03:32 PM (15:32)     3        47318
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My impressions of David's arguments are as follows:
  1. Vacula must renounce doxxing. (he's done that before, but he needs to do it more often and more loudly).
  2. Vacula must denounce shitty personal attacks in the SlymePit. (He's done that before, but he needs to do it more often and more loudly)
  3. Vacula must denounce shitty personal attacks from anonymous twitter trolls, so long as those attacks are directed at selected bloggers.
  4. Vacula must denounce memes that make fun of Freethought Blogs, however lighthearted. Context and content are unimportant, these bloggers should be completely immune from that particular form of satire.
  5. Silverman need not denounce any attacks from his allies at Freethought Blogs, however nasty they might get. They are free to defame skeptic leaders, call people misogynists and rape apologists, call for death by fire, porcupine, fucking a rusty knife sideways, etc. They may also call for real world blacklists of speakers and bans of attendees and need not fear any censure from American Atheists in so doing.

Last edited by D4M10N; 16-Jun-2013 at 03:39 PM (15:39).
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Old 16-Jun-2013, 05:01 PM (17:01)     4        47320
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What was Justin's position?

1. David Silverman condemned hatred and threats against women in the movement, but does he have evidence that this is actually occurring?

2. Silverman should not feel responsible for publicly condemning church vandals just because he is the leader of the most visible atheist activist organization.

3. This shit right here?! This shit right here?! http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a2-n1...%3Da2-n18cCth0
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Old 16-Jun-2013, 06:29 PM (18:29)     5        47321
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Silverman was so evasive when it came to denouncing 'shit' himself! I couldn't believe it!

I think Justin missed an opportunity for the moral high ground here - all he had to do was say "I denounce any rape threat that has occurred, and any nasty photoshop, and also the bullying done by those such as Myers, Zvan, etc". Then if Silverman doesn't follow suit, then he's actually denouncing less than Justin!

Then Justin turns the tables. He says "I've denounced all this 'shit', will you denounce ALL the 'shit', or just some?"

Silverman either has to admit that he was wrong, or special plead - neither will look good. Or he denounces Myers and co, which would make him Witch of the Week.
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Old 16-Jun-2013, 07:52 PM (19:52)     6        47322
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I can't say that I enjoyed listening to it, but I did find it informative. I thought that both of them made some valid points, but I am not sure how much each of them understood what the other was attempting to say. Silverman seemed to be asking Vacula to denounce behavior he described as "sexualized" (even though some of what he seemed to be referring to was not sexualized); Vacula seemed to be asking Silverman to denounce people who are clearly his friends (and this struck me as a bit unreasonable). I fear that this interaction may lead to increased polarization and a deepening of the rift.
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 12:22 AM (00:22)     7        47323
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I tried to listen to it yesterday. Its been a very busy week here and I came home to the twitter storm. I had a hard time listening to it and could only listen to short bursts of what sounded to me, like the secular version of the Gish Gallup. Totally irrational sounding and illogical. This man is important in the U.S. for the atheism cause? Who is he?

As I have repeatedly said, I am not a tribal person. I've always been the weird contrarian so please do not claim me for the anti-FtB side or any side..

I'm no Hitchens but I agree with the way he does things


But this man David Silverman does not know what an association fallacy is? Does not ask for evidence? Does not get the full story from all sides not just one? You guys are in trouble.


That said, if I was Justin, I'd denounce all rape threats from all sides and ask David to do the same thing. Then ask him if he will sign a document denouncing the bullying from all sides. Then move on. Ignore them.

I'm doing boots on the ground outreach now locally. There are two groups of people who walk into our Unsermons. Those who have no idea what is talking about and those who know but laugh when A+ is mentioned. It's a joke now. As far as the SJW go, we do our support for the LGBT movement, local cancer groups etc. etc. The big conference approach is not where we should be concentrating our efforts. Not everyone can afford the big conference and tiny little local groups doing outreach is effective. That's why I (now) have no real interest in the Internet drama going on. Remember, it's not the SJW that do the boots on the ground work, for the most part anyway. Writing a blog post is easy compared to getting an atheist sign hung, moderating discussions, reaching out to other groups etc.

My Canadian 2 cents. You did ask.
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 12:24 AM (00:24)     8        47324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vjack View Post
Silverman seemed to be asking Vacula to denounce behavior he described as "sexualized" (even though some of what he seemed to be referring to was not sexualized); Vacula seemed to be asking Silverman to denounce people who are clearly his friends (and this struck me as a bit unreasonable).
Agreed. If denouncement does any good (and I'm fairly skeptical that it does in this context) it should be directed at specific behaviors rather than people. Silverman definitely got this part right, in my view, although he seemed completely unwilling to apply it to his own allies.

Let's say that I denounce all manner of incivility and personal attacks. How does that actually help anyone get better? I might be able to influence a few people just a little bit, but it's not about to make the SlymePit dry up or the parody accounts go away.

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Originally Posted by Notung View Post
I think Justin missed an opportunity for the moral high ground here - all he had to do was say "I denounce any rape threat that has occurred, and any nasty photoshop, and also the bullying done by those such as Myers, Zvan, etc". Then if Silverman doesn't follow suit, then he's actually denouncing less than Justin!
Denouncements for everything! It costs nothing and achieves even less.

As for me, I'd much rather engage in cool moral reasoning than hotly sermonizing about other people's sins. I left fundamentalism some time ago, and I'm not feeling particularly nostalgic.

Last edited by D4M10N; 17-Jun-2013 at 12:36 AM (00:36).
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 01:29 PM (13:29)     9        47328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4M10N View Post
If denouncement does any good (and I'm fairly skeptical that it does in this context) it should be directed at specific behaviors rather than people. Silverman definitely got this part right, in my view, although he seemed completely unwilling to apply it to his own allies.
I agree that he got this part right. He did seem unwilling to apply it to his own allies, but he might have been more willing to do so if he had been given a specific behavior to denounce. I wonder what would have happened if Justin had denounced the practice of publicly outing someone as an atheist who is using a pseudonym regardless of who does it and then asked David to join him? I wonder what would have happened if Justin had pointed to the statement from Skeptic Women, denounced the bullying to which the statement refers, and asked David to do the same?

I agree with you one person denouncing or condemning a behavior is not going to change the behavior. I don't think that's the point of doing it. I think the point of doing it is that many of us would like to distance ourselves from certain behaviors and this may be one way to do so. Of course, denouncing something is worthless if we continue to promote it on Twitter, etc.
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 05:47 PM (17:47)     10        47331
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In a tweet today Silverman singled out "sexually charged shit"

https://twitter.com/MrAtheistPants/s...23928367726592

I have seen no evidence of Justin producing or passing along "sexually charged shit".

Conversely PZ has. "F#ck him into the ground" - Gelatto Guy. Is "F#ck" is sexually charged? How about the porcupine meme?
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 05:56 PM (17:56)     11        47332
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Die in a fire is ok, because it isn't sexually charged.
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 07:19 PM (19:19)     12        47333
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Lying fuckhead is okay because it's not ableist ("fuckTARD).
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Old 17-Jun-2013, 07:35 PM (19:35)     13        47334
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You guys want sexually charged? Here you go.
#SilvermanMustDenounce #AllThisShit
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Old 19-Jun-2013, 12:01 AM (00:01)     14        47349
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It's really starting to bother me that the ragebloggers don't seem at all to care about this Johnson AA lawsuit. Here is an actual formal allegation of racism and harassment, and the response is basically *yawn* RON LINDSAY MADE ME FEEL BAD!!!
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Old 19-Jun-2013, 11:00 PM (23:00)     15        47354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardGemmer View Post
It's really starting to bother me that the ragebloggers don't seem at all to care about this Johnson AA lawsuit. Here is an actual formal allegation of racism and harassment, and the response is basically *yawn* RON LINDSAY MADE ME FEEL BAD!!!
Could you recap? My Google searches keep coming up with dead links to the story.
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Old 20-Jun-2013, 01:36 AM (01:36)     16        47355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrenWeb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardGemmer View Post
It's really starting to bother me that the ragebloggers don't seem at all to care about this Johnson AA lawsuit. Here is an actual formal allegation of racism and harassment, and the response is basically *yawn* RON LINDSAY MADE ME FEEL BAD!!!
Could you recap? My Google searches keep coming up with dead links to the story.
Yes.

http://www.skepticink.com/incredulou...l-termination/
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Old 21-Jun-2013, 10:05 PM (22:05)     17        47380
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Since I want ragebloggers to stop rageblogging, in general, I'm not in a good position to say Y U NO RAGEBLOG when something new comes up. Ed's article pretty much covered the whole thing, and was cautious enough not to jump to unwarranted conclusions. What more could they possibly add that wouldn't go too far?

For once, they are being restrained and waiting for the facts to come in. I'm not about to fault them for doing so.
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