The Heathen Hub

A community where people can talk about atheism, religion, science, humanism, evolution, politics, Creationism, literature, reason, rational enquiry, logic, cooking, reading, travel and life.

Spacer
To select different styles:

Spacer Go Back   The Heathen Hub   >  General   >  Philosophy, logic and mathematics
Reload this Page Any Point to Enlightenment?
Spacer

Spacer   Spacer

Reply

Any Point to Enlightenment?

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-Mar-2010, 11:15 PM (23:15)     1        38019
ouinon
Senior Member
 
ouinon's Avatar
 
member


Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 118
Blog Entries: 9
Pirate_1 Any Point to Enlightenment?

Does anyone have any proof that what they think/believe has any effect on what they do?

Or is any apparent effect actually "merely" the result of how we frame our experiences in the light of that thought/belief? ie. Do we perceive events, assign causality, attribute agency, "find" patterns in our actions, in our experience, etc which provide evidence for the "effect"iveness of our beliefs/thoughts, and filter out/ignore those which don't?

And/or might any correlation that we seem to see between our thoughts/beliefs and our actions be because our thoughts/beliefs are produced by the interaction between our bodily processes and language, such that certain physical states, and accompanying behaviours, are often, ( but not always nor reliably ), associated with certain thought patterns?

Are you sure that what you think and believe reliably causes much, if anything, to happen, that it isn't just a sort of side-effect, a by-product of the body and language, and that if you completely stopped paying attention to it you would behave any differently? How do you know that if you suddenly ignored every one of your thoughts and beliefs you would behave any differently?

If it makes no difference, if it is just so much glittering spray thrown up in the ocean of language by the physical and chemical processes of our body, what difference does it make if stop paying attention to it? A zen buddhist saying is "Before enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water; after enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water".

If that is so might wonder what is the point of enlightenment? Less pain perhaps ... in which case it does make a difference ... ... ... but perhaps the "point" is that there is no point to enlightenment. No point at all. : : : If there was a purpose served it wouldn't be enlightenment, which is all about letting go of desire, of goals! :

Anyone? Any thoughts?

PS. I am thinking that my brief out-of-body experience, a shocking 18 years ago now, may have shown me that my body carries on doing and being, according to complex laws laid down by genes, upbringing, and experiences and and environment now and in the past, even when my thoughts and beliefs are detached from it. It's taken a long time for me to notice this.

PPS. :wink: Are memes ( beliefs/ideas etc ) like viruses, taking root only where the physical soil is receptive/"good", where the experience which accompanied our exposure to them gives them a foundation in our bodily processes, nothing to do with "higher" thought processes? And when we take them seriously, believe that they have power, is it rather like worshipping idols, "images" of our bodies wrought in language, dreadful copies like in Invasion of the Bodysnatchers? And when we think that we have power over them it is as much of a mistake as Frodo believing that he could control the Ring?

.

Last edited by ouinon; 10-Mar-2010 at 12:04 AM (00:04).
ouinon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-Mar-2010, 10:43 PM (22:43)     2        38067
alicat
faithless and unreasonable
 
member


Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 586
Default

awareness

You still do the same sort of things(chop wood, carry water), but you're awake as you do it.
alicat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-Mar-2010, 10:45 AM (10:45)     3        38133
ouinon
Senior Member
 
ouinon's Avatar
 
member


Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 118
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicat View Post
Awareness. You still do the same sort of things(chop wood, carry water), but you're awake as you do it.
What do you mean by "awake" and "aware", and what is the point of being in that state?

.
ouinon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-Mar-2010, 10:03 PM (22:03)     4        38152
alicat
faithless and unreasonable
 
member


Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 586
Default

More relaxed, a little enhanced synchronicity, maybe not too much point.

Not saying I am enlightened, perhaps more than some, spent thousands of hours in meditation and studied all sorts of mysticism, I certainly don't have superpowers by a long shot but definitely don't feel I wasted my time.

First, enlightenment can happen gradually or by epiphany, more about a process than a destination. We hear stories all the times about "enlightened masters" who then had some realization and then became even more "enlightened." Continuous insight into self and the universe, but what's the point in that?

Sort of an intuitive process too, so that's why a lot of the teaching is in questions and doesn't seem to make sense. Words don't work well here. Think about the word "tree", we all have idea when we hear this word since we've seen the thing it corresponds to. But if you didn't have a picture and you had to use words to describe "tree" to someone with no experience with an actual tree, how well would it work, even with a physical object let alone a state of mind.
alicat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-Jun-2010, 05:51 AM (05:51)     5        39852
Seer
Member
 
Seer's Avatar
 
member


Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North California
Posts: 83
Default

ouinon, I think you're on the right track here... "but perhaps the "point" is that there is no point to enlightenment. No point at all." What is the point of anything within or without awareness (enlightenment), really? Ego wants to have a point, and that is fine. In fact, have ego on the side, if you want, just remember that's not who you are. Let it have one, or a hundred points. Just do not confuse ego with the True Self. Ego is The One dreaming to not be The One (yet always, even caught up in ego, is The One). Your True Self is that awareness which was conscious even in an 'out of body experience'. So, enlightened, you simply realize this. That is all. What you do with that is The One, doing what you do -- pointless, but free. Utterly free.
__________________
"Have the fearless attitude of a hero and the loving heart of a child." Soyen Shaku
Seer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Jun-2010, 08:51 AM (08:51)     6        39871
Makbawehuh
Doctor Ragnarok
 
Makbawehuh's Avatar
 
member


Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The darkest corners of your imagination. Or maybe right next to you. I'm not telling!
Posts: 4,015
Blog Entries: 170
Default

Proof? I have none. Anecdotes I have aplenty, but no proof.
__________________
"Time once again for an important GNR public service announcement! Don't feed the yao guai. That is all." ~Three Dog

"Remember kids, a smart man knows when it's time to run like a little bitch!" ~Kanta, Desert Punk
Makbawehuh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:17 AM (09:17).

       

Credits and thanks:
Basic Style design: Design By: Miner Skinz.com
(much altered by Gurdur)

For smilies:

Koloboks, including Aiwan, ViShenk, Just Cuz, Laie, Connie, snoozer, Viannen,
and especially Mother Goose too.
KitKatty. and PederDingo, and phantompanther.

For help, coding, and/or modifications:

Different people at vBulletin.com, and a whole lot of people -- too many to be individually named, sorry -- at vBulletin.org

For artwork, avatars, backgrounds and so on:

KitKatty, and verte, and britpoplass


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright is asserted for the Heathen Hub itself and for its owner by its owner, from 2008 onwards. Copyright of individual posts remains the property of the original poster, however by posting on the Hub the poster grants the Hub the rights to host and present the posted messages for perpetuity. The Hub is in no way responsible for opinions or messages posted in any way on the Hub by its members. Please also see this here. Copyright of individual icons and other graphics, as for individual vBulletin styles, remains the property of the original owner/creator. Copyright for the vBulletin software itself, and the vBulletin Blogs software, remains with Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd, as in the copyright notice above.
Welcome to a place to talk about atheism, religion, science, humanism, evolution, politics, Creationism, literature, reason, rational inquiry, logic, cooking, reading, and travel - the Hub: a community for everyone.